In England, there are those who do, and, amongst many other groups, those who speak Cockney. The difference is so dramatic, and the class and regional origins of the different dialects so obvious, that the upper crust doesn't bother trying to get the Cockneys to speak proper English. At least, I expect, they haven't since My Fair Lady.
But in this country, language police abound. Those who speak "properly" see those who don't as inferior in some fundamental and very annoying way: they are either sloppy people, or they don't care about quality, they're simply boors, or, at very least, they're lazy.
I grew up on an Alberta farm, amongst farmers. We had no need for BBC grammar, metaphorical flowers (we specialised in real ones), poetry, abstruse allegories, whatever. And we communicated very well, as well as we needed to. We used large chunks of mental power to understand and deal with aspects of reality city people know little about, chunks of brain others use for such things as practising BBC grammar, useless from our point of view.
And anyway, people aren't inferior to each other. It's not possible. They are simply not as good at doing certain things. Somewhere inside us, we all know that. But we don't all practice it.
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7Meredith Moeckel, Terry Willard and 5 others
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Click "Read More" for the many comments...........................................
But in this country, language police abound. Those who speak "properly" see those who don't as inferior in some fundamental and very annoying way: they are either sloppy people, or they don't care about quality, they're simply boors, or, at very least, they're lazy.
I grew up on an Alberta farm, amongst farmers. We had no need for BBC grammar, metaphorical flowers (we specialised in real ones), poetry, abstruse allegories, whatever. And we communicated very well, as well as we needed to. We used large chunks of mental power to understand and deal with aspects of reality city people know little about, chunks of brain others use for such things as practising BBC grammar, useless from our point of view.
And anyway, people aren't inferior to each other. It's not possible. They are simply not as good at doing certain things. Somewhere inside us, we all know that. But we don't all practice it.
Like
7Meredith Moeckel, Terry Willard and 5 others
Comments
Click "Read More" for the many comments...........................................
Aldous Richards BBC English, by the way, went out of fashion decades ago. It was pernicious though, while it lasted. Dylan Thomas, famous Welsh poet, developed his own oratorial style, somewhat influenced by BBC English, with the slightest patina of acceptable Welshness for its exotic flavour. He did this purposefully, because the Welsh were considered inferior, and the Welsh accent a sign of provincial stupidity. He felt he could not read on radio or record his poems without developing a suitable 'accent.'
Like · Reply · 5 June at 18:52
Aldous Richards Is there, in Canada, such a thing as CBC English? CBC tries to emulate the standards of reporting of the BBC, but the show hosts and reporters definitely don't speak anything resembling BBC English.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 18:54
Linda Eva Williams As much as I agree with you, I believe certain sounds such as certain accents (Cockney, Deep South American accents (USA), Quebecois...) are harsh on the ear and often irritating. Maybe snobbism on my part, but I grew up with Danish and Swedish parents, and have a fairly acute ear, even to the point where I noticed my father's Danish accent was too guttural (and was indeed considered to be lower class). I think an education that doesn't address the way we speak/sound sets the less fortunate up for class distinction. The English, especially, thrive on separating the classes and poor pronunciation, which goes along with poor grammar, ensures the lower classes are kept in their place. Also, what is wrong with expressing oneself with refinement and delicacy? Name me an author who eschews these? And when you do, I shall likely disagree lol. ..."til next time.
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 June at 21:32
Gord McCaw I specialize in, like, how could you put it...wait, wait wait.....waddayacallit, Varavickian English. If you don't, uh, be-lieve me, ask Al Broudy...
Like · Reply · 5 June at 21:53
Stan Burfield Varavickian. Yes. You hold the Chair of Varavickian Studies, I've heard.
Like · Reply · 2 · 5 June at 22:37
Al Broudy No, listen Stan. He holds the whatayacallit Lucasian chair in Varavickian Studies. And if you don't believe me, ask Burfield.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:06
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Write a reply...
Paul Dixon · Friends with Gord McCaw
dig it...
Like · Reply · 5 June at 22:33
Stan Burfield After watching myself talk on video, painfully at first, but then finally realising that I speak a dialect, my opinion now of BBC English and CBC English, and even Elizabethan English, is that they are simply dialects as well. And, to take this one or two steps further, I've decided also that even though a massive education can hand one massive amounts of knowledge, wisdom only comes from living. As books form the coinage of knowledge, so experience is the coinage of wisdom.
Like · Reply · 3 · 5 June at 22:56
Hide 15 Replies
Stan Burfield That may or may not be grammatically correct. I wouldn't know.
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 June at 22:59
Linda Eva Williams Of course you know. Now let's not be - disingenuous:)
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 June at 23:01
Stan Burfield Well, not really. It sounds okay. That's all I know.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:03
Linda Eva Williams Are you grumpy?
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:03
Stan Burfield Ha ha. Yeah, probably! How could you tell?
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:04
Linda Eva Williams Terse responses.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:04
Linda Eva Williams LOL
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:04
Stan Burfield Ah. You definitely have more social understanding than I have. But you're right. I haven't been feeling good lately. And then I looked at the news feed, which I shouldn't have, and came across postings by the usual language police and I lost control, I'm afraid.
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 June at 23:07
Linda Eva Williams Oh go nuts. The really good thing about receiving bad health news is reconsidering what's worth fretting about.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:08
Stan Burfield yeah, I agree. none of this is. In fact, I feel dumb just yackin about it. I haven't even ggot any good reason for feeling depressed. Just emotional stuff. Not like your problems.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:12
Aldous Richards I'm still puzzled about this CBC English idea. I really don't believe there is such a thing. The BBC, especially in the early days of radio, standardized a certain manner of speaking. It wasn't exactly the language of the people - but a kind of upper class dialect meant to instill authority and trustworthiness. The CBC on the other hand, has varied dialects. Mansbridge sounds different to Rex Murphy who sounds different to Gomeshi who sounds different to ... and so on. The only thing I recognize as almost standardized at the CBC is a kind of asinine patter that goes on, intended to be breezy and up-to-date with idioms and casual lingo. Drives me nuts - talk for its own sake. Kinda like this comment. :-)
Like · Reply · 6 June at 00:16
Stan Burfield Ha ha. Yeah, I think you're right. The CBC is a completely different animal than the BBC, as different as Canada is to England. The CBC, to do it's job properly, should have a multi-ethnic feel, with many dialects on display, preferably maybe a melded dialect. I guess we try for that to some degree. However, I haven't heard my dialect on CBC, except in interviews with farmers. And I was shocked, shocked mind you, at their crudeness.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 00:32
Linda Eva Williams Stan Burfield My problems are no worse than anyone else's - depression, and its relatives, is no walk in the park. Please don't feel I'm competing or seeking sympathy. I do not like the blues unless in music. Motown works well - as an antidepressant, it just occurred to me. Put on some good Soul Music and think of me and others. Perhaps ""Stand by Me", or "When a Man Loves a Woman" (for your Linda), or maybe "Rainy Night in Georgia"... the list goes on. XX
Like · Reply · 6 June at 00:53
Stan Burfield "Rainy Night in Georgia", is one of my favourite songs. Right, I need to listen to more music. I've been lacking that lately.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 10:56
Aldous Richards Stan Burfield :-)
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:13
Write a reply...
Terry Willard prober BBC English is just a human construct that can often get in the way, especially with Language police. Language is meant to communicate ideas. If the idea is communicated, but regetted (especially by spell check) because of some feeling of inferiorism, either by the author or the reader is sad and missing the point. I did very poorly in High school English, having to write the final exam three times to get into University, but went on to get a PhD and publish 13 books so far, two of which hit best seller status. I have literally written thousands of articles, workbook lesson and government submissions, but was told I would 'never mount to nothing' because of my poor English by high school teachers. The passion and information of the communication is more important than a the language skills.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 06:33
Stan Burfield Exactly my point. You're a good example.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 10:56
Aldous Richards I think, too, that language skills cannot be prescribed. Knowing grammar and punctuation are the elements of any language, but knowing them doesn't amount to skill in communication, written or oral. That's an added dimension, which a person either cares to develop on their own, or doesn't. For that reason, I don't believe that you can learn how to be a best-selling writer, or even necessarily a good writer, through courses. And whether you're after huge sales or not, finding your own voice is key. No-one can teach you that, or define what it is or should be, except yourself.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:13
Stan Burfield Aldous Richards I would add that a person's voice develops as they develop with age and life experience. And I mean experience beyond university experience. When people are young, they avoid themselves like the plague and try to be the people they are taught to be or the people they admire. It's nearly impossible for them to have their own voice at that stage. I mean, their real voice. I suppose they could manufacture a cartoon voice that might sell.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:24
Aldous Richards There's nothing like life experience for a writer. There's an old saying, re writers, which is that poets tend to start young, and gain success when young, whereas prose writers, who need life experience in order to have anything to say, tend to start later in life. Maybe there's some truth in it. Keats, Rimbaud, Dylan Thomas, many other poets, started young and died young. Many prose writers haven't 'come into their own' until after they've written a few novels and assimilated their life experience so they can translate it into narrative in one fashion or another. (And then there are people like T.S. Eliot who wrote poetry, plays and criticism, and did so through a long life.)
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 6 June at 11:31
Stan Burfield Makes sense. When you read a poem, you're not necessarily looking for content. (I tend to, but that's me.) But when you're reading prose, content is the main thing, and verbal skills follow. Content can be created artificially by lifting stuff from other writers, but to me anyway it comes off as having a cartoon quality. A good writer needs to have some substance of their own to say.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:41
Stan Burfield And substance of your own that comes from life experience falls under the heading of wisdom, no matter how old-fashioned that may sound.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:43
Terry Willard I agree. sharing life experiences in writing is communication. Yes grammar and style help, but content is King.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 6 June at 12:24
Terry Willard Content come from experience
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 6 June at 12:24
Aldous Richards I also think that poets, by their nature, are focused on the sound and rhythm of words, and the subtle, sometimes arcane metaphors that they use to say something. Often, what they are saying is a distilled expression of being, of the moment, and so on,...See more
Like · Reply · 6 June at 14:05
Stan Burfield Ha ha. Well said.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 14:08
Write a reply...
Penel Eynde LeGrand · Friends with Terry Willard
The weight of communication is on the speaker. If people don't understand what has been said either the speaker has failed, or the speaker's object was to enjoy the sound of their own voice.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 6 June at 22:01
Stan Burfield Yup. And if someone without "proper" grammar seriously wants to communicate something with someone who demands proper grammar, he'll have to learn it or not bother.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 23:21
Penel Eynde LeGrand · Friends with Terry Willard
Uh huh, but there's also been instances where my not talking as they imagined I should, I was appropriating their culture to mock them.
Some folk size others up before they even get introduced.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 7 June at 09:17
Like · Reply · 5 June at 18:52
Aldous Richards Is there, in Canada, such a thing as CBC English? CBC tries to emulate the standards of reporting of the BBC, but the show hosts and reporters definitely don't speak anything resembling BBC English.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 18:54
Linda Eva Williams As much as I agree with you, I believe certain sounds such as certain accents (Cockney, Deep South American accents (USA), Quebecois...) are harsh on the ear and often irritating. Maybe snobbism on my part, but I grew up with Danish and Swedish parents, and have a fairly acute ear, even to the point where I noticed my father's Danish accent was too guttural (and was indeed considered to be lower class). I think an education that doesn't address the way we speak/sound sets the less fortunate up for class distinction. The English, especially, thrive on separating the classes and poor pronunciation, which goes along with poor grammar, ensures the lower classes are kept in their place. Also, what is wrong with expressing oneself with refinement and delicacy? Name me an author who eschews these? And when you do, I shall likely disagree lol. ..."til next time.
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 June at 21:32
Gord McCaw I specialize in, like, how could you put it...wait, wait wait.....waddayacallit, Varavickian English. If you don't, uh, be-lieve me, ask Al Broudy...
Like · Reply · 5 June at 21:53
Stan Burfield Varavickian. Yes. You hold the Chair of Varavickian Studies, I've heard.
Like · Reply · 2 · 5 June at 22:37
Al Broudy No, listen Stan. He holds the whatayacallit Lucasian chair in Varavickian Studies. And if you don't believe me, ask Burfield.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:06
View more replies
Write a reply...
Paul Dixon · Friends with Gord McCaw
dig it...
Like · Reply · 5 June at 22:33
Stan Burfield After watching myself talk on video, painfully at first, but then finally realising that I speak a dialect, my opinion now of BBC English and CBC English, and even Elizabethan English, is that they are simply dialects as well. And, to take this one or two steps further, I've decided also that even though a massive education can hand one massive amounts of knowledge, wisdom only comes from living. As books form the coinage of knowledge, so experience is the coinage of wisdom.
Like · Reply · 3 · 5 June at 22:56
Hide 15 Replies
Stan Burfield That may or may not be grammatically correct. I wouldn't know.
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 June at 22:59
Linda Eva Williams Of course you know. Now let's not be - disingenuous:)
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 June at 23:01
Stan Burfield Well, not really. It sounds okay. That's all I know.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:03
Linda Eva Williams Are you grumpy?
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:03
Stan Burfield Ha ha. Yeah, probably! How could you tell?
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:04
Linda Eva Williams Terse responses.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:04
Linda Eva Williams LOL
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:04
Stan Burfield Ah. You definitely have more social understanding than I have. But you're right. I haven't been feeling good lately. And then I looked at the news feed, which I shouldn't have, and came across postings by the usual language police and I lost control, I'm afraid.
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 June at 23:07
Linda Eva Williams Oh go nuts. The really good thing about receiving bad health news is reconsidering what's worth fretting about.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:08
Stan Burfield yeah, I agree. none of this is. In fact, I feel dumb just yackin about it. I haven't even ggot any good reason for feeling depressed. Just emotional stuff. Not like your problems.
Like · Reply · 5 June at 23:12
Aldous Richards I'm still puzzled about this CBC English idea. I really don't believe there is such a thing. The BBC, especially in the early days of radio, standardized a certain manner of speaking. It wasn't exactly the language of the people - but a kind of upper class dialect meant to instill authority and trustworthiness. The CBC on the other hand, has varied dialects. Mansbridge sounds different to Rex Murphy who sounds different to Gomeshi who sounds different to ... and so on. The only thing I recognize as almost standardized at the CBC is a kind of asinine patter that goes on, intended to be breezy and up-to-date with idioms and casual lingo. Drives me nuts - talk for its own sake. Kinda like this comment. :-)
Like · Reply · 6 June at 00:16
Stan Burfield Ha ha. Yeah, I think you're right. The CBC is a completely different animal than the BBC, as different as Canada is to England. The CBC, to do it's job properly, should have a multi-ethnic feel, with many dialects on display, preferably maybe a melded dialect. I guess we try for that to some degree. However, I haven't heard my dialect on CBC, except in interviews with farmers. And I was shocked, shocked mind you, at their crudeness.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 00:32
Linda Eva Williams Stan Burfield My problems are no worse than anyone else's - depression, and its relatives, is no walk in the park. Please don't feel I'm competing or seeking sympathy. I do not like the blues unless in music. Motown works well - as an antidepressant, it just occurred to me. Put on some good Soul Music and think of me and others. Perhaps ""Stand by Me", or "When a Man Loves a Woman" (for your Linda), or maybe "Rainy Night in Georgia"... the list goes on. XX
Like · Reply · 6 June at 00:53
Stan Burfield "Rainy Night in Georgia", is one of my favourite songs. Right, I need to listen to more music. I've been lacking that lately.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 10:56
Aldous Richards Stan Burfield :-)
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:13
Write a reply...
Terry Willard prober BBC English is just a human construct that can often get in the way, especially with Language police. Language is meant to communicate ideas. If the idea is communicated, but regetted (especially by spell check) because of some feeling of inferiorism, either by the author or the reader is sad and missing the point. I did very poorly in High school English, having to write the final exam three times to get into University, but went on to get a PhD and publish 13 books so far, two of which hit best seller status. I have literally written thousands of articles, workbook lesson and government submissions, but was told I would 'never mount to nothing' because of my poor English by high school teachers. The passion and information of the communication is more important than a the language skills.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 06:33
Stan Burfield Exactly my point. You're a good example.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 10:56
Aldous Richards I think, too, that language skills cannot be prescribed. Knowing grammar and punctuation are the elements of any language, but knowing them doesn't amount to skill in communication, written or oral. That's an added dimension, which a person either cares to develop on their own, or doesn't. For that reason, I don't believe that you can learn how to be a best-selling writer, or even necessarily a good writer, through courses. And whether you're after huge sales or not, finding your own voice is key. No-one can teach you that, or define what it is or should be, except yourself.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:13
Stan Burfield Aldous Richards I would add that a person's voice develops as they develop with age and life experience. And I mean experience beyond university experience. When people are young, they avoid themselves like the plague and try to be the people they are taught to be or the people they admire. It's nearly impossible for them to have their own voice at that stage. I mean, their real voice. I suppose they could manufacture a cartoon voice that might sell.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:24
Aldous Richards There's nothing like life experience for a writer. There's an old saying, re writers, which is that poets tend to start young, and gain success when young, whereas prose writers, who need life experience in order to have anything to say, tend to start later in life. Maybe there's some truth in it. Keats, Rimbaud, Dylan Thomas, many other poets, started young and died young. Many prose writers haven't 'come into their own' until after they've written a few novels and assimilated their life experience so they can translate it into narrative in one fashion or another. (And then there are people like T.S. Eliot who wrote poetry, plays and criticism, and did so through a long life.)
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 6 June at 11:31
Stan Burfield Makes sense. When you read a poem, you're not necessarily looking for content. (I tend to, but that's me.) But when you're reading prose, content is the main thing, and verbal skills follow. Content can be created artificially by lifting stuff from other writers, but to me anyway it comes off as having a cartoon quality. A good writer needs to have some substance of their own to say.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:41
Stan Burfield And substance of your own that comes from life experience falls under the heading of wisdom, no matter how old-fashioned that may sound.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 11:43
Terry Willard I agree. sharing life experiences in writing is communication. Yes grammar and style help, but content is King.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 6 June at 12:24
Terry Willard Content come from experience
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 6 June at 12:24
Aldous Richards I also think that poets, by their nature, are focused on the sound and rhythm of words, and the subtle, sometimes arcane metaphors that they use to say something. Often, what they are saying is a distilled expression of being, of the moment, and so on,...See more
Like · Reply · 6 June at 14:05
Stan Burfield Ha ha. Well said.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 14:08
Write a reply...
Penel Eynde LeGrand · Friends with Terry Willard
The weight of communication is on the speaker. If people don't understand what has been said either the speaker has failed, or the speaker's object was to enjoy the sound of their own voice.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 6 June at 22:01
Stan Burfield Yup. And if someone without "proper" grammar seriously wants to communicate something with someone who demands proper grammar, he'll have to learn it or not bother.
Like · Reply · 6 June at 23:21
Penel Eynde LeGrand · Friends with Terry Willard
Uh huh, but there's also been instances where my not talking as they imagined I should, I was appropriating their culture to mock them.
Some folk size others up before they even get introduced.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · 7 June at 09:17
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